Chocolate & Lilac Genetic Help Box.

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Need help with a Persian chocolate/lilac, color/genetic question . . . . ask Karen

Hi Karen - When I purchased my "bluepoint" female I noticed that she was greatly lighter than the rest of the litter which were "steely" deep blue-like the Russian Blue - my kitty was more grey-blue; now she is two yrs.old and I see a lot of red through her coat and this has a very purple sheen overall - does this mean she is Lilac rather than Blue? I am a novice in the specifics of color distinction and we have bred her to our Flamepoint male which resulted in a very definite Flamepoint female and a questionable male who is either blue or chocolate or possibly sealpoint?? He started out looking like he would be blue, but has darkened to have much brown around the face, and the feet/tail are quite dark-like solid seal. What should I call him?? Don't want to misrepresent...Thankyou for your input.

When you purchased your female, your kitty's blueslip should have listed the correct color based on the breeder's breeding program. You may have also received a pedigree with your girl. If you did not, you may order one from CFA. In order for a cat to be lilac, the chocolate or dilute must be carried on BOTH sides of the parents. This would be a good time to study that pedigree of your girl and look for lilacs and/or chocolates from her sire and dam. If it is not there, or only on one side, your kitty can not be a lilac. When you bred your "blue point to a flamepoint and had a flamepoint baby, your female had to be a blue cream point which would explain her lighter coloring to her siblings as well as possible the purple sheen. The male kitten in question should be a sealpoint based on the assumption the flamepoint sire was not a carrier for the chocolate gene ( one of his parents needed to be a chocolate/lilac or carrier). You should also look at his pedigree to determine if there is any chocolate in his background. If not, you will never get a chocolate or lilac from that pair. If you discover chocolate/lilac on both sides of your girl, you may want to discuss with the breeder the possibility of reevaluating her color and changing it via directions from the breeder of your female. If you also find that your flamepoint male carries the chocolate gene from his parent(s), you may be able to produce lilac cream points, chocolate tortie points, chocolate and lilac points. However, you should not register them as such until you correct the color on your female's papers. The pedigrees of my first chocolate carrier foundation were in German and had to be translated. I certainly did not know what a choc. schildpatt or a schwarz-weiss was. Your work should be easier, as CFA pedigrees are in English.

If you breed a choc pt male, and a solid chocolate CPC persian together, what will you possibly get?

The answer depends on what is behind that chocolate/chocolate point. If there is dilute on both sides, you will have about 25% lilac and lilac points to 75% chocolate and chocolate points. If neither parent or only one parent carries the dilute gene for lilac, you will have 50% chocolate points to 50% solid chocolates. I like those odds.

I have a kitten that is red mack tabby and white, with chocolate patches over her body. One patch is on her white paw, and it looks to be chocolate colored. This kitten has no chocolate in her background! What color could she possibly be? She is not a brown patched tabby.

You indicate that there is no chocolate in your kitty's background, but do not mention what colors are in her background. Saying that your girl is a red mackerel tabby and white infers that she is exactly that, without any additional color. With those brown patches, could she possibly be a van brown patched tabby and white? Are there tabby markings or ticking on her brown patches? If not, she may be a van calico. Look closely at her parents and grandparents coloring. Many times, cats are mis-registered for color and then the offspring don't seem to fit the expected color and then are also registered incorrectly for color. Red always shows a tabby pattern to some degree, and may be hard to distinguish between a red tabby and a solid red. Ideally, a red would be free of the tabby markings, but seldom is that the case. A picture would be helpful. Oh course, with no chocolate in you kitten's background, you can not get a chocolate. At one time, many breeders believed brown tabbies would produce chocolates. However, the brown tabby gene is an agouti or "wild gene" coloring with the fur being ticked or banded with one of two tabby patterns; the mackerel with the markings running vertical to the back and the classic with it famous bull's-eye appearance. Breeding chocolate into tabby lines will produce chocolate tabbies. but brown tabbies (no chocolate in background) will not produce solid chocolate or chocolate tabby or anything chocolate. Let me know more about the parents and grandparents pedigree and what you come up with.

Hi Karen,
What color kittens would I get if I bred my chocolate male to my brown patched tabby female?

This is a difficult question without knowing the genetic makeup of the parents of the two cats you want to breed. Does the chocolate carry the pointed gene and/or the dilute for lilac? Does the female carry any dilute, pointed or chocolate? Assuming the parents are homozygous for chocolate (no pointed gene and no dilute lilac gene) and homozygous for tabby with out any chocolate or dilute in the background, your kittens will be split 50% black/red/tortie to 50% brown tabby/red tabby/brown patched tabby. Of the females, you should expect 50% expressing the red with either the black or the tabby pattern. Of the males, 50% will be black or brown tabby and 50% will be red or red tabby. If you have dilute on both sides of the parents you will also see creams, blues, blue creams, blue patched tabbies, blue tabbies at 25% to the dominant colors. If there is chocolate on the girl's side, then you may also see in your litters, chocolates, chocolate torties, chocolate tabbies, etc. If you have dilute and chocolate on both sides, lilacs and lilac creams and lilac tabbies etc. as well. Now if your kitties carry the pointed gene on both sides, added colors would be lynx points and pointed. If you have dilute, chocolate and pointed, you will have a candy shop of pointeds, tabbies, torties, and solids in a variety of color combinations. Wouldn't a lilac lynx point look nice. You will not get any chocolates from this mating unless the female carries the chocolate gene. But her kittens will. Have fun.

Will a lilac cpc mated with another lilac CPC give you chocolate persains as well as lilacs?

You will not be able to produce any chocolate or chocolate point Persians from two dilutes breed together. You will however produce about 25% lilac pointed babies from these parents. Unfortunately, once the dominant gene, in this case chocolate, is removed from the cat's genetic makeup, it is gone forever until reintroduced into your lines from a chocolate, black (chocolate carrier), chocolate point or seal point (chocolate carrier). Many breeders prefer only the dilute colors and thus do not incorporate the dominate black, chocolate or even red into their programs. I like the variety, and prefer the chocolate color over the lilac, so I work with dominates carrying dilutes. With my dilutes, I breed them back to dominate colors since I don't want to loose that dominate gene. This way the chocolate gene is not lost. You will eventually need to outcross, so go for a black (chocolate carrier), chocolate, seal point (chocolate carrier) or chocolate point to bring the dominant back into your program. A red (chocolate carrier) male will also work well if there is not too much red in your program and you like lilac creams and chocolate torties. Best of luck in upcoming litters.

Hello- although I am more familiar with chocolate and lilak Himalayan colours , but I would like to go in a different direction. I have seen on CFA's web site where there are such colours as ; shell chocolate calico and possible van shell lilac calico Persians. How would I go about producing these rare shades?

I remember attending my first show in 1992 and seeing a bicolor with the shaded silver coloring and wondering if it was showable as well as what it took to get that color. It was a remarkable color and quite beautiful. I can see your interest in producing kitties in the shaded color class expressed in the bicolor and calico pattern. The best way to produce these colors would be to purchase kitties already exhibiting those patterns and colors you desire. If these are hard to locate or difficult to talk the breeder into letting the kitty move into your home, you have a few color options that will work well with patience. A van chocolate bicolor cat may be breed to a shell cameo carrying the chocolate gene or to a chinchilla silver (hopefully also a chocolate carrier), in which case all kittens will be bicolor and carry the chocolate gene. You will get a variety of shading with about half the kittens exhibiting the shading effect. You will want to keep these shaded bicolors and breed them to a chocolate bicolor (or carrier for chocolate), preferably a van. To keep the red coloring for you calicos, use shell calico or shell cameo females (chocolate or carriers) with black (carrying chocolate) van bicolor or chocolate van bicolor male or the reverse. Of course, using shell to shell would work better if available. I would discourage you from using any pointed lines in this program unless necessary to lock in that chocolate gene. Go lightly, as you will get pointed shell bicolors and calicos which currently are not show able in CFA shows. There are many very nice chocolate vans available if you search www.chocolatecats.com. Be patient. It will take a sizable financial investment in your program and at least two generations if not more to produce what you want with the quality you would expect. It will be worth the wait.

Karen my question is what are the chances of me getting himalayan kittens out of mating 2 CPC persain? See I have a male CPC chocolate & will be getting a CPC lilac female.

Breeding two CPC Persians will produce pointed babies (himies) at a rate of 1:4 or 25% pointed to 75% solid. Of those solid cuties, 50% will also be CPC 25% of the litter will be homozygous and will not carry the pointed gene at all. All of those babies will be visual chocolate or lilacs depending on if your chocolate is a carrier for the dilute lilac gene. Enjoy all your lovely babies in your upcoming litters.

Hello, I have 3 questions for you, the 1st is I have a Black CPC female persain that carriers chocolate I want to breed her to my seal male which does not carrier the chocolate gene what will be the colors of my kittens?

2nd, is there a such thing as a dark chocolate point Himalayan I seen a breeders ad stating they had a dark chocolate point Himalayan, 3rd is there a such thing as a dark chocolate Himalayan or is it just a seal?

Part 1
Breeding a CPC black female to a Seal point male, provided neither carry the dilute gene for blue or lilac, will produce 50% seal points to 50% solid black. The solid black will all be heterozygous (carry) for the pointed gene. They will be CPC like their mother. If there is any dilute, either lilac or blue on both parents pedigree, you may also have some blue points and blues in that litter. Also important to note, since your girl carries the chocolate, 50% of the kittens will also be chocolate carriers. That would be 25% of the pointed babies and 25% of the solid babies will carry the color gene for chocolate. You will only be sure of which ones, if they ever produce a chocolate/lilac offspring with a chocolate/lilac or carrier as a mate. Have fun with the possibilities.

Part 2 and Part 3 together
That is a hard one, since I produce non pointed chocolate Persians and color variations of such. In the non pointed chocolates, mine have always been the same shade of chocolate-no darks or lights. To be fair to the himi experts with many kitties to view and breed to produce more chocolates, I would concede that it is possible. I will look at photo after photo and automatically say-that's a chocolate point, that's a blue point, yes that looks like a seal and then yes that is definitely a lilac. Looking at the those dark chocolate points, they do appear to be seal. Many seal points have dark body coats and some have light (almost white) body coats. All chocolate points I have seen, have light coats with little or no blending of the dark into the lighter body color. Paw pad color is not always as accurate or easy to describe without many examples for comparison. You have several options. One, you could go for a solid chocolate CPC; two, go for the light milk chocolate; three; look at the pedigree closely of the kitty in question, view photos of the parents as well as photos of the kitty with its littermate. This could be helpful if there is a mixed litter of seals and chocolates together. I have heard advertisements of breeders selling solid chocolates, only to find they were black. There wasn't even a chocolate on either parents side. What were they thinking?

I was told not to mate my solid blue to my Lilac pt Persian, as blue distorts the colour is this true.

There should be minimal problems working with the lilac and blue colors together in your breeding program. Many champions and grands have come from such breeding combinations. Eye color has been a challenge for many years with the himi colors, often seen in breedings with the solid Persian lines, especially with the copper eyes. Producing solid blues and lilacs in your program should have little or no detrimental affect on the copper eye color required for blues and lilacs.

Blue and lilac, expressed either as pointed or solid, are recessive genes. The lilac is recessive to blue and will only be expressed when doubled (homozygous), or in other words, two lilac genes together. Breeding your lilac pt to a solid blue will produce all solid blue kittens unless the blue is heterozygous or carrier for the lilac, and or pointed gene, in which case, theoretically, you will have 25% lilac to your 75% blue, or 25% of blue points to 75% blue solids. If your solid blue carries both the lilac and the point genes, 25% of your kittens will be lilac points, 25% blue points, 25% solid lilacs and 25% solid blue. You can see how fun this can be. I continuously work non-chocolate/lilac Persians into my program to improve type, increase size and vigor and add to the gene pool. With every chocolate/lilac I keep, it is bred to a non-chocolate/lilac. Good luck and have fun with your babies.

Is chocolate a dilution of seal and lilac a dilution of blue? But is not blue a dilution of seal (black)?

Yes and no. Black is dominant and blue is recessive. Chocolate is dominant and lilac is recessive. Black and blue are both dominant to chocolate and lilac. There must be two chocolate genes present before they can be expressed. If there is one black and one chocolate gene in the cats genetic makeup, you will see black, thus black being dominant over chocolate. With the existence of two chocolate genes, one from each parent, the black gene is gone forever until you introduce a non chocolate or carrier into your program. Then the black dominates again. The lilac works the same way when it is doubled up, with the black and blue gene removed from the genetic makeup. It is considered pure (homozygous) and will breed true for lilac when bred to another lilac. A lilac bred to a chocolate will give you chocolate or chocolate/lilac kittens if the chocolate is a carrier. Thus chocolate is dominant to the lilac. A chocolate (homozygous) kitty breed to a blue kitty will produce black babies based on our knowledge that blue is dominant to chocolate and black is dominant to blue. Seal point is the black with its color expression limited to the point areas of the cat. Seal point is dominant to Blue point. Seal and Blue point are dominant to Chocolate and Lilac point. Chocolate point is dominant to Lilac point.

I want to know about the red/cream males that breed as chocolates. Such as a red male produced from a chocolate-tortie and a chocolate male.

Remember that the red (dilute cream) color gene is sex linked or carried on the female X chromosome. Females have two X chromosomes, XX and the boys have only one X in conjunction to their unique Y chromosome, XY. Because the red is carried on a different chromosome than your basic black (dilute blue), the red color expresses itself independently of the black, causing what is termed incomplete dominance in the presence of the other X. When there is a red gene on one of X chromosomes of a female, say from a black to red breeding, you will of course get tortie girls. A female with two red genes, one on each of her X chromosomes, the red color overrides (complete dominance) the black, thus completely masking the black and producing the red (dilute cream) color. Now for the guys. Since the male has only one X chromosome, if the red gene is on that X, the boy will be red. Here again the red color dominates and interferes with the complete expression of black with the absence of another X chromosome to challenge the expression of that red.

Now we will switch to chocolate (dilute lilac) and chocolate torties (dilute lilac cream) for our breeding. A chocolate tortie has that red gene on one of her X chromosomes and a normal X without the red gene. She is breed to a chocolate (dilute lilac or even lilac carrier). The boys are all going to get their X from their mom. They are only allowed one. Half the boys will get that X with the red gene, the other half will receive the normal X, no red. The guys with that red gene X are all going to be red, even though Daddy was chocolate, his donated Y was overrode by that lonesome red gene. However, that kitty still has that chocolate gene given to him by both parents on two non sex linked chromosomes hidden by the expression of the red (dilute cream) color. Now this boy grows up and is breed to a chocolate (dilute lilac), and wow- the gene for chocolate comes out. His daughters are chocolate torties (dilute lilac creams) and his sons are all chocolates (dilute lilac) How did this happen? He passed on his red gene X to his daughters along with mom's normal non red gene X-thus the tortie. His sons could only receive a Y gene from him, so no red gene is passed along from him. In this case with mom being chocolate, she can not pass a red gene either. The little guys are free to completely express their chocolate coloring. This red (true chocolate) dad could also be breed to a chocolate tortie (dilute lilac cream), but now half the boys will be red (100% chocolate genetically) and half the girls will be chocolate torties, with the other half red (again 100% chocolate genetically). Using a red male from the original breeding as you inquired about would work well into a chocolate breeding program. Limit you females to black or blue (chocolate or lilac carriers) or to chocolate and lilac to produce all visuals.

I have a chocolate point male who has lilac in his background on both sides. The lilac goes back to the great grandparents. I am trying to get lilacs back from him and have been unable to do this. I have his daughter, also. She is seal point (dam was seal point). I also have a blue-cream point female I have been breeding him to. How can I get the lilac recessive gene to come out?

It is unlikely that the chocolate point male you have is carrying the recessive lilac gene at this point since you have had no dilutes in your breeding(s). Without seeing the pedigree of your chocolate point, I will assume that the closest generation expressing the dilute gene would be the great grandparents. Although it is possible for a recessive trait to pass unknown for several generations before expressing itself when breed to another dilute or carrier, your odds of the dilute lilac gene passing from the great grandparents run around 12% chance. If there were any dilutes (blue or blue point) in closer generations, such as your male's parents, would increase your probability of having a lilac carrier. Since your male is a chocolate, it is a given that IF he carries the dilute gene, it will be lilac. It may be helpful to breed to a blue point. If he carries the lilac dilute gene, you would see blue points in half the offspring or at a rate of 50%. After two breedings and you still do not get dilutes (bluepoint or lilac), then you can be pretty sure your boy does not carry that gene. However, at least all offspring will be dilute carriers as well as chocolate carriers. Put these kitties into your breeding program with other lilac or lilac carriers. Make sure you are using carriers. To be 100% sure you have a dilute carrier (lilac in this case), one parent must be lilac or lilac cream.

How would you describe a solid chocolate in words?

I would use one word to describe a solid chocolate -"brown". It is the same color seen in the chocolate labs. It reminds me of the rich color of dark oak furniture or acorns. There may be some variations between breeding lines. Every chocolate I have ever had within my breeding program has always been the same shade of chocolate -no light chocolates or dark chocolates. Just chocolate. A lighter tone or red tint to the ruff part of the coat may occur in the solid chocolate due to an immature coat or oxidation to the coat respectively. This is also seen in solid blacks. The type of lighting will affect the visual appearance of coat color with full sunlight the best light for viewing.

Other factors attributing to intensity of color include coat length, texture and volume of the lighter undercoat seen in the long hair breeds. These factors will give a lighter overall appearance to the chocolate. The ears will exhibit the best true color of the cat, since the hair is uniform in length with no undercoat. Once you see a chocolate, it is a color you never forget.

Hi, I have a question about my Lilac Persian. When I got him as a kitten his hair was much lighter in color but now at 7 months of age it has darkened somewhat although it is not as dark as my Blue Persians. It is not as pale as some lilac photos I have seen. His nose padding is a pale gray (but not pinkish gray that the standard calls for) but again not as dark as my Blue Persian's nose padding that is dark gray. How can I be certain he is a Lilac? His sire is a lilac and the mother is a tortoiseshell that does carry chocolate. Than for your help.

Your male certainly could be a lilac. The best time to determine the color coat of a lilac Persian is when the kitten's coat is shortest, before the eyes open. The lilac will have a pinkish overcast or tone in appearance compared to a blue. This was noted by the breeder of your male and the basis of color identification on the blue slip. As the kitten matures and the hair grows, it may develop a lighter coloring called a kitten coat or sometimes referred to as a fever coat. I recall in my early years of breeding, trying to register a tortoiseshell as a tortie smoke. I even forwarded a photo of her with an incredible amount of "white" fur intermingled with her tortie coloring to CFA. I learned a lot from the knowledgeable staff at CFA. And of course, she completely shed out this white fluff within her first year.

Your male may have had a lot of kitten coat keeping the color lighter in appearance. Now as his coat matures, he has lost some of that lighter, finer fur. This usually occurs around 6-8 months of age. Color photos are difficult for comparison purposes as tints and tones vary from one site or another and many photos are taken when the cats are exhibiting their lighter coat. I have seen photos of lilacs that appear to be creams more so than lilacs. To be certain he is registered the correct color, you may do a test breeding to a chocolate, chocolate tortie or lilac female. If your litter is full of chocolates/lilacs and variations of such, your male is a true lilac. If you have a combination of black, blue, chocolate and lilac kittens, your male is a blue Persian carrying the lilac gene. Good luck.